Tanja:
I love that you brought up identity. Modern society says we can choose our identity, define our truth, and even make our own religions—choices that don’t line up with God’s truth. When our hearts align with the gospel, we understand what “identity in Christ” means. We are adopted into God’s family—princes and princesses in a royal family—part of a kingdom with infinite resource. I’m not talking prosperity gospel; I’m talking trust. When we rely on God’s provision—relationally, materially, spiritually—our decisions align with our identity as His children.
You also raised the idea of value. When we’re secure in our identity as God’s children, we value what He values. And you mentioned divided kingdoms—that picture fits our hearts divided between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of self. That’s where idolatry comes from. Paganism says, “If you keep the gods happy, you’ll be safe and prosperous.” That’s self-interest. The kingdom of God says, “Seek first My kingdom and My righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” We don’t have to worry. Jesus reminds us the lilies are clothed and the birds are fed. God has infinite resources.
Paul:
Old Testament faith was even more of a mystery because they hadn’t seen God. They knew His presence as a pillar of fire in the wilderness or through the plagues. Even Adam and Eve tried to hide; Genesis doesn’t say they saw God.
We as believers have seen Jesus—God in the flesh—who overcame our greatest fear: death. That’s even the end of marriage—“till death do us part.” Marriage is temporary; it represents the union we have with a God we can “see” in Christ. Personally, I’ve wrestled with whether marriage is for us or for God. I’ve had experiences where I thought marriage was for me and for God, and that I needed to be married to please God.
That’s not a good reason to do anything—especially if you split the reason, giving part to God and keeping the rest for yourself. We can be selfish about why we marry. God was never selfish with us; He gave us free will. We can marry someone who complements us—not completes us—and represent God’s relationship with us, rather than marry for convenience, pleasure, or appearances.
Tanja:
I want to circle back to “being married to please God.” That muddies the waters. If pleasing God were possible on our own, we wouldn’t need Jesus. Yes, God is pleased when we obey, but our goal isn’t to earn His favor. We can’t please or disappoint God into changing His love; He already knows what we’ll choose. That’s unconditional agape love. Hosea shows that we mess up over and over, and God never says, “You failed to please Me for the hundredth time—I’m done.” We bring only our sin and brokenness to the relationship; we take everything to the cross. Would you share more about marrying “to please God,” especially given how young you were and the influences around you?
Paul:
I struggled with identity and what it meant to please God. I had a sense marriage was required to be a believer who seeks God—that singleness was only for those “chosen” to be alone. We talk about Paul’s counsel on how difficult marriage is and his advice not to marry. There were cultural influences then that made marriage difficult—just as now. That’s a whole other episode.
I didn’t know the right reasons. I thought it was a requirement and felt I had little choice because of extremely conservative perspectives I grew up with. It felt like an expectation more than a choice. I also developed a people-pleasing mentality—a trauma response when you don’t get choices growing up. You either fight/flee or you try to please everyone.
Jesus tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. God doesn’t require us to sacrifice our value to make others happy. My pleasing tendencies led me to sacrifice who I was to keep peace. That’s dangerous—especially now, when everyone champions their own happiness. If you’re a pleaser, it’s easy to be trampled. I didn’t make good decisions because I focused on others instead of being honest about what I needed. I avoided conflict, which only drives people further apart.
The convenience of divorce doesn’t help either; it’s presented as an easy out. I didn’t have children in my first two marriages. I prayed desperately for God to change hearts in both situations. There was no change. I didn’t ask for the divorces. I struggled with feeling condemned for being on the wrong end of unsuccessful marriages. Eventually I felt released from those covenants—God didn’t want me to suffer because of my mistakes. He’s blessed me with an amazing third marriage and two beautiful children. It’s a miracle after being conditioned to think there’s only one right way to do marriage, regardless of whether you’re healthy or safe. God showed me He desires mercy, not sacrifice—a powerful point in Hosea. He understands sacrifice better than anyone because He sacrificed His Son—but He did it out of mercy, not guilt or shame. He did it because He loves us, not merely to rescue us.
Tanja:
That distinction matters. We’re called to love sacrificially, but not to sacrifice ourselves. In Christian circles, that gets muddied—especially with abuse or other forms of unfaithfulness like pornography or financial betrayal. Those may not always be listed as “grounds for divorce” in certain traditions, but they can cause significant harm. We’re all going to take some hits in marriage—it won’t always be easy, even in the best marriages. When you look at Scripture, you can find direct statements like “God hates divorce,” but in context it’s more nuanced. God intended marriage as a lifelong covenant. But does He want women and children to stay in dangerous situations? Throughout Scripture, God is on the side of the oppressed, not the oppressor. We shouldn’t view God as a legalistic judge but as a loving Father who grieves when His children suffer.
Both of my kids are going through divorce right now, and there’s grief—even when I saw it coming and they had good reasons. Divorce is a formality when a marriage has already failed. That doesn’t mean failed marriages can’t be restored—I believe they can, or I wouldn’t be in this coaching space. But Jesus said Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of hearts. When couples see divorce as the only option, at least one heart has hardened.
Paul:
When you drill down into covenant, it’s a promise from the heart between two parties to be faithful and loyal. We’re making covenants in a broken world that doesn’t support eternal love. Everything here is temporary; God says He will make all things new. We’re trying to do eternal things in a temporary world. The enemy has a kind of dominion in this age and despises anything that represents God’s eternal reign. Marriage represents God’s commitment to us—“to have and to hold, for better or worse”—so forces will try to destroy it.
Hosea committed to Gomer. I would imagine he felt something for her; God didn’t command him to love someone to whom he had no connection. Hosea bought her back. Things were different then—women were treated as property—yet he stayed with the idea of being with her. She came back; we don’t know if the relationship was fully restored, but Hosea didn’t give up on her.
Covenant in a broken world is a huge challenge. Many people would rather stay single or keep relationships open-ended than commit to something that seems more likely to fail than succeed. The good news is God never fails. He gives us what we need to get through each day, with or without a spouse. Even when human covenants break, His covenant with us is never broken.
Tanja:
That connects back to identity and the “divided kingdom.” Sometimes our hearts aren’t even divided—they’re entirely given to the kingdom of self. It feels good in the moment but ignores the eternal. Many people are unprepared for marriage because they enter it asking what they can get. When they stop getting it, they’re done.
Paul:
We’ve been stuck in a kind of spiritual immaturity. Growth in identity means understanding who we are and whose we are—that we’re made in the image of an eternal, infinitely wise, loving Creator, which most of us can only begin to imagine.
We’ve sent the message that identity in Christ is only available if we sacrifice everything that feels good to appease God. But we already delight Him—He created us for His pleasure and connection. He knew we’d have choices, and He didn’t separate Himself from us; we separated ourselves from Him. He’s always present. He breathed His breath into us—humans alone received that gift. His breath in us means we have access to Him with every breath.
We don’t have to perform to reach Him. It helps to have a spouse who understands this, because being unequally yoked adds strain. If one spouse believes their own efforts matter more than God—or treats God as a side note—it’s hard. It’s better when both understand being made in God’s image takes priority over self-image and self-effort, especially in hard times.
Tanja:
That’s a good place to pause. I think we’ll have more conversations in the future—we could talk about Scripture and God’s love all day.
Paul:
All day.
Tanja:
How can people connect with you if they’re looking for marriage therapy?
Paul:
I have a website: transformingpresence.org. I’m praying about opening opportunities for private practice because I want to be available, while also being present for my 11- and 9-year-olds. I love therapy and have a lot of experience. I don’t have all the answers, but if someone wants to process and be heard, I’m available. You can also email me at transforming paultransformingpresence.org, and we can get in touch. I’d love to work with couples or individuals who are struggling. You don’t have to do “marriage counseling” even if you’re struggling in your marriage. I often work with wives or husbands who want to improve their marriage even if their spouse won’t come. Don’t let that stop you from seeking help. Everyone needs a safe person who will listen so you can feel seen, sort your thoughts, and hear what God may be saying amid all the other noise.
Tanja:
We’ll have that information in the show notes so people can reach out. You can also go to faithfulfamilycoaching.com to check out resources and the community with group coaching. Paul, thank you for your time and wisdom—let’s wrap up.
Paul:
Thank you, everybody. Have a great week.
